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eclipse
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Post by eclipse »

LazyManc wrote:eclipse, the whole purpose of any company is to achieve a bigger market share in their respective markets and hence increase profits. Micro$oft just happen to be incredibly good at it. You can't blame them for wanting to get rich, and if it wasn't for Windows then PC's really wouldn't be very handy for gaming at all. I'm not defending everything they do, but the image they have as some tyranical empire led by the dark sithlord gates just isn't true.

DirectX is an extremely useful tool for game developers which helps shorten production times. It doesnt require a licence and it's a much more sophisticated implementation than openGL.
"Micro$oft" how do you use that $ when you don't seem to be a "Microsoft basher" or at least, someone who believes microsoft to have a deliberate monopoly without intent to stop monopolising?

I'm not saying windows is crap or anything, or that Bill Gates could be compared to Darth Vader, and I don't think DirectX is crap, I personally prefer games to be running on D3D than OpenGL, not that many give you a choice between the two, but the ones that have given me a choice, I choose D3D.

just want to make those things clear.
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Post by mid_gen »

I just don't fold and follow the 'microsoft is evil' line just because it's popular. I like Microsoft products, I don't mind paying for them. I don't have the inclination to spend the time learning linux properly, and there's nowt all else out there.

Put yourself in Uncle Bill's position, imagine the situation :

"Ok, I've successfully cornered the OS market through some rather suave (sneaky?) tactics"

"I'm making a fortune"

"Hmm, well, I don't know, this seems a little unfair, I think we should let our competitors gain market share so we make less money"

"Oh dear, Sun/IBM/Linux have put me out of business, I need to go back to business school"

Do you use Windows? yes. Why? Because it's the best out there for general home desktop/gaming use. If someone released a better product, Microsoft would be in the shit faster than you can say "SUSE 8.1".
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Post by shrek »

The problem with Linux is that hardly any games run on it.
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Post by biggles »

macos is actually quite impressive im told, i know 1 person that has an x-box for gaming, and an imac for email and his photography work, i dunno exactly what he does with his photography work on the internet, i didnt ask.
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Post by mid_gen »

Macs have always been great for CAD applications, and OSX seems pretty nice from what I've seen.
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Post by LazyManc »

"Micro$oft" how do you use that $ when you don't seem to be a "Microsoft basher" or at least, someone who believes microsoft to have a deliberate monopoly without intent to stop monopolising?
The last I checked, the dollar sign was a monetry symbol and not an intent for global dominance. If I remember right, MS have quite a few of the old greenbacks lying around...

As mid has already said with his little roleplay, for microsoft to attempt anything other than to stay market leaders would be commercial suicide. They may use unsavory tactics to rid themselves of competitors (i.e. throwing more and more cash at them until they sell up) but it's not like they're going round assimilating them.

--------------------

Macs used to be fantastic for apps like photoshop etc due to them running a damn sight quicker on Apple hardware, which is no longer the case. I've never actually used an Apple OS so I can't really comment on the current state of their systems, but I can't really think of anything i'd need to do that can't be achieved using Windows.
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Post by eclipse »

They may use unsavory tactics to rid themselves of competitors (i.e. throwing more and more cash at them until they sell up)
but it's not like they're going round assimilating them.
you just said they were. until they sell up? so MS buys them, they become a part of MS or, in borg terms the collective, and the company's ideas are practically "nicked" through this method, and incorporated into MS code, I think you would call that assimilation.

and MS has been known to buy a company then just dump it right away
that sounds like destroying they competitors to me. and it HAS been done, don't try to say it hasn't.
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Post by biggles »

mmmmmm jeri ryan.
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Post by mid_gen »

but it's not like they're going round assimilating them

you just said they were. until they sell up? so MS buys them, they become a part of MS or, in borg terms the collective, and the company's ideas are practically "nicked" through this method, and incorporated into MS code, I think you would call that assimilation.

and MS has been known to buy a company then just dump it right away
that sounds like destroying they competitors to me. and it HAS been done, don't try to say it hasn't.
You're right. Why buy an operating system when you could just write one yourself from scratch eh? That is one of the most spectacularly contradictory sentences you've ever written.

"...so MS BUYS them....ideas are practically NICKED...."

Sorry, I fail to see how paying money for something is stealing.

The big bad world isn't fair eclipse, and the big fish eat the little fish......You haven't yet explained why a company aiming for maximum market share is bad.
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Post by LazyManc »

You're missing the point of my post eclipse, the companies don't have to sell out to MS, they could refuse to be bought. There's no gun to their heads, so if they hand over their business then they're just as much to blame for the takeover as MS.
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Post by mid_gen »

Not entirely true, any public limited company is vulnerable to an aggressive takeover bid. They can try their hardest to convince their shareholders not to sell, but 'try' is all they can do.
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Post by PeteTheHair »

Bugger me... I go out for a few hours and I miss entire topics :)

So, erm... What Chris said, basically, with a few footnotes...

OpenGL - THese days is getting a bit old and sucky. Yeah, I know a few high profile games have come out and used it (Q3 being a notable example), but most of these are done by people who talk assembler (John Carmack, for example). This is no bad thing, but the OpenGL standard has been around a while now and is in serious need of an update. DX, on the other hand, has full teams of software engineers working on it, and is possibly the most complete and integrated gaming platform ever. Mebbe we shall see an OGL2 some day, but I'm not holding me breath just yet...

Mac OS X - Further to brief comments in another thread, I have (briefly) used it on a flatmates shiny new PowerBook. I was lead to believe that the OS was a legend of usability and flashness, built around a rock solid BSD core. People have been lying to me. The OS, while being better than any Linux window manger I've ever played with, still sucks a big one, and is in need of some serious user consultation. For example, in finder (the explorer equivalent, ish), you select a file and hit Enter, and it... renames it. Cos obviously, opening it would be stupid. That's Ctrl + O, dumbass. There are stacks of little things like this... if you click on a button in a background window, it may activate, it may not. As for the OS core, it effectively BSODs (in a pretty manner) whenever you try and do anything related to VPNs (if you don't know, don't ask ;) ), although it seems fairly stable otherwise. The hardware is dead nice though, to give it it's dues.

I'm going to bed.
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Post by Spey »

i think its time to spread some lurrrve in the forum...who wants to be on the receiving end of my hot spicy lurrrve


come on now dont all rush at once
narcissism, my only pleasure in life.
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Post by shrek »

/me hides from spey

Me doesn't want to be on the receiving end of ur hot spicey lurrrve thanks.
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Post by LazyManc »

Spey m8, you could open a kebab shop will all that hot spicey lurrrve to go around.
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Post by ZiK »

oo yes please, i like kebabs :)
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Post by LazyManc »

Even topped with spey's special saucey sauce (or S4 as it's known in the kebab business)?
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Post by Kulgan »

LazyManc wrote:You're missing the point of my post eclipse, the companies don't have to sell out to MS, they could refuse to be bought. There's no gun to their heads, so if they hand over their business then they're just as much to blame for the takeover as MS.
I'd would argue against this point for this reason:

Imagine a situation where you are the market leader in a particular area.
Microsoft expresses an interest in that area.
Do you:
a) Sell your business to Microsoft (giving them the market leading position), assuming they express an interest, obviously.
b) Not sell your business to Microsoft (giving them the market leading position after about 5 years, once they've obliterated your product).

I cite: Netscape, Lotus 123 and WordPerfect. All of these products have been knocked off the top spot by Microsoft. Granted, they got there with quality products.
However, name me another company that would use the huge revenues created by their main product area to develop a product for free with the express purpose of annihilating an established market leading product, then deliberately integrate that new product into their main product. Thus forcing people who want to use the new product to buy their main product.

I don't object to Microsoft on principle - what I do object to are their ethically dubious methods of conducting business, and, incidentally, that's what the US Justice Department objects to as well.

K
Last edited by Kulgan on Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by LazyManc »

Ok, fair enough, MS are ruthless bastards when it comes to business, but like mid said, it's not meant to be fair. If i'd bought stocks in MS in the late 80's I certainly wouldn't be complaining, and I don't think you'd mind either. As long as they're not using child labour or pumping radioactive waste into my water supply, then I don't really have a problem with them.

Integrating a web browser with Windows makes sense whichever way you look at it, it's such a fundamental application these days that it's a natural evolution of the product. It's also good from a user perspective of having the same interface for exploring folders as you do for exploring the web, consistency is good design practice.
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Post by garlando »

Kulgan wrote: I cite: Netscape, Lotus 123 and WordPerfect. All of these products have been knocked off the top spot by Microsoft. Granted, they got there with quality products.
However, name me another company that would use the huge revenues created by their main product area to develop a product for free with the express purpose of annihilating an established market leading product, then deliberately integrate that new product into their main product. Thus forcing people who want to use the new product to buy their main product.
In the end it is up to the consumer what he/she wants to do. Just because MS have included some software with their main product it doesnt mean you HAVE to use it. You can easily install Netscape, Lotus or Word Perfect on machines running windows.
shrek wrote:The problem with Linux is that hardly any games run on it.
The reason for this is simple, hardly any games run on linux because very few people use linux in comparison with Windows, this is because Windows is not nessisarily the quickest or best OS out there but it is the EASIEST to use, you dont need to learn anything to use it.
1) Put in OS CD
2) Plug in joysick, game pad etc
3) Insert game CD
4) Play

So to sum all this up;
So much stuff is compatible with windows because it is so easy to use.
=A-N-D=
IE being released free was NOT the reason Netscape got knocked off of the top spot, people could still use Netscape if they wanted to but it was easier for the normal user to use a program designed for and based around their OS.

____________________________________________________________


Sorry I got a bit carried away there :wink:
If you build a man a fire he'll be warm for a day, but if you set a man on fire he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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